Stampede to Refinance Mortgages through Joust has Begun

In this edition of The Unicorns Podcast Justin Kelly talks with Anny Le Wilson, CRO of Joust.

"The thing here is that we are looking at now talking I guess fixing or variable. And because people have been conditioned to fixing because it's been a cheap rate and it's something that they can plan every month, set repayments every month and things like that, the nervousness is the fact that people are still looking for fixed rates, but they can't understand or fathom why these rates are so high."

Speaker 1: Welcome to another edition of The Unicorns Podcast. This is a podcast series featuring business leaders, motivators, innovators, and general go-getters. Well, today on The Unicorns, we're again looking at Australia's property sector and the home loan market, with interest rates on the rise and clearance rates falling. It's a very interesting time for those working in the sector, but also for those of us with home loans. Our guest is Anny Le Wilson, a 20 year veteran of the banking, finance, and mortgage industry. She's now the Chief Revenue Officer at Joust, which is an online, real time home loan marketplace, and no doubt, a very busy time for Anny at the moment. And I'm very pleased to say she joins me now. G'Day Anny. Welcome to the program.

Anny Le Wilson: G'Day. Thank you for having me on board.

Speaker 1: Okay. I'm keen to get started on your professional background, Anny. How did you get started in the industry and what was it that made you interested in the first place?

Anny Le Wilson: I think one of the things is that I was very lucky through my career being a female in finance, and particularly commercial finance. I was given a lot of, I suppose, a seat, a lot of opportunities to personally grow in the finance industry, but also have the focus around SME and what that looked like for the overall experience of how to help people, right?

Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

Anny Le Wilson: One of the things, I'll take you back to grassroots. My background is I come from a family that were immigrants and mom and dad had to really squeeze out a lot of effort to put food in the family. But the thing here is that one of the things I wanted to do when I grew up was the fact that I actually wanted to get into social science and social work. My mother said to me at the end of my graduation was that, "You're doing this, you've done this course you've gone through university"-

Speaker 1: What was your degree?

Anny Le Wilson: I'm qualified to actually work in social science and social work. What happened was there, my mom said to me, which was quite ... This was a moment. She said to me, "Why do you want to help people?" And I said, "It's because the world needs to be a better place. There's a lot of people struggling" and things like that. The best advice she actually gave me at the point in time was she said, "Well, you are one person and there's millions of people to help. How are you going to do that?" And I said, "I don't know, I'm going to go out there and be me and get on the tools and dig up dirt." And she said to me, "You know what helps people and what people value in life?" And that was the moment for me. She said, "It's money. Money makes everything better."

Anny Le Wilson: And because we come from an immigrant family, it's very important. She said to me, "Why don't you think about ways of making money or helping people get money to fulfill their needs in life?" And that was the kickoff for me, because I think that really implanted the seed in my mind was how am I going to help people? And in reality, she is absolutely right. Money helps people and it helps fulfills our dreams. It helps fulfill our essential needs and it puts shelter over our head, pays for bills, all that stuff. If you think about the SME market, it's about putting Australians' dreams into reality with having a bank, an institution, a lender, a broker, to actually help fulfill those needs and actually give them personal growth and business growth, and I think that's been my passion in life.

Anny Le Wilson: I guess I've been given the opportunity through the banking of, I guess, growing my skills of helping customers grow, but then also playing a piece in developing strategies and growth markets where I feel as though those are the ways that happens in the financial services world, where we identify areas of growth for the bank, but also areas that need us the most. I guess that's where my journeys come from by being a banker, being a broker. Also playing a big part in strategy and building and developing teams and areas for the bank, and not only to make money, but at the same time making-

Speaker 1: To help people.

Anny Le Wilson: To help people. And I think that's what I've achieved in my career.

Speaker 1: Very good advice from your mom. I have to say.

Anny Le Wilson: I know. She's very wise woman.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay. You're now at Joust as the Chief Revenue Officer. Tell us about the work that you're doing at Joust and maybe a little bit of background about what Joust actually is and how it works.

Anny Le Wilson: I think the thing here is that the financial industry's evolved and going back to my career, I think about the fact that I've played in many areas of banking and financial services. The reason that drew me to Joust was the fact that it's a two-sided marketplace. It not only helps consumers with their financial needs, but it also plays a role in actually helping lenders and brokers to develop their business for sustainable growth, but also understanding a platform for example, that acquires customers digitally. Now, I'm talking about the digital customer here. And I think the other thing is that the digital customer is no different to any other customer that comes through your door. The only difference is it's amplified by many, many thousands and thousands of people visiting your front shop, right?

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Anny Le Wilson: Therefore, when I think about the value proposition of Joust, what Joust brings to the business partner side, and let's just park the consumer side for now, the value that it brings is that if you think about the way that financial services are moving, they're moving online to acquire more customers. And one of the reasons for that is one, is the fact that the old traditional values of a banker going out and forming relationships with their accounts are solicitors and lawyers, that's becoming a lot more slower.

Speaker 1: Those days are gone.

Anny Le Wilson: Those days are gone, but then the ones that have got those relationships, that's gold, right? Then you think about the fact that 9.1 million Australians shop online. You think about it. Where do you need to be as a lender and broker for example? The other thing is that I think we're moving in a fast paced industry where we can't afford the time to wait for people to come to our door. The thing here is that if you think about the diversification of people shopping online, in reality the millennials is where we need to be looking at for the next generation of home owners and borrowers. The reason for that is one, they shop online, but two, the baby boomers of the world, they're selling up their assets, they're going to superannuation mode, they're looking at retirement.

Speaker 1: It's true. It's true. You're right. Yeah.

Anny Le Wilson: Therefore I think Joust has a very strong proposition in the market in actually driving consumers to our business partners, but providing value of data. When I always talk about Joust, I talk about the fact that Joust is actually additional marketing growth mechanism that creates opportunity to acquire customers through quality data points. The thing here is that a lot of people will say to me, what that means is, "Oh, you're just an online leads gen company." The thing here is that online leads gen has actually created a very, I guess, not so popular version of the name to that. The reason being for that is because of the fact that a lot of the lenders and brokers have had bad experiences with these companies online. Now, the thing here is that I actually don't completely blame them for disappointing the broker market and the lender market side of acquiring customers. Because I believe that there has been a lack of education around what digital customer's behaviors are and also the lack of understanding of how to react and deal with digital customer.

Anny Le Wilson: Then also the lens of the fact that just because you have a hundred customers come to your door, not every customer is going to follow you onto the journey at the same time. Don't forget, even though there is a technology platform such as Joust in the marketplace to bring customers to you, it does not necessarily mean that the whole technology piece is the important piece. The important piece is that we need to point to the fact that we need to build relationships still. Nothing's a given. Building relationship with people is a skill. The old fashioned way of building a relationship is catching up with coffee, making sure you get to email them and become friends for a good six to seven months. Then you get to talk about business. But in reality, we don't have time for that.

Speaker 1: It's much more transactional now. Happens so fast.

Anny Le Wilson: Absolutely. The thing here is that the way that if you look at the market at the moment, particularly in the finance industry of acquiring customers and where customers are going, the thing here is that 70% of customers are now turning to brokers for their home loan and financial needs.

Speaker 1: I was going to ask you that. That has to have risen.

Anny Le Wilson: That's risen. That's risen [inaudible 00:09:48]-

Speaker 1: From where? Because in the old days you'd go into see your bank manager at CBA or ANZ and work out a deal or something like ... Those days too, are gone. That doesn't happen anymore.

Anny Le Wilson: Well, branches are closing, right? But there is still a human need to communicate. The reason for the market share uplift to 70% this year is because of a number of reasons, it's because we've been locked down with COVID. We haven't been able to business develop and nor customers going to branches and things like that to have a conversation about their financial needs. The other side of that also is that I guess when you're thinking about the 70%, you think about the fact that the broker industry has become a career and a segment, right? And you talk about where has that risen from? when I was a broker back many, many years, and I'll hold against you that you called me over a veteran because I don't feel that old

Speaker 1: Pardon me, yes.

Anny Le Wilson: But back in those days, the broker market made only six to 8% market share. As you can see in the last 20 years, that's risen to 70% market share. I remember when I was a broker and managing a broker firm, the thing was we had direct accreditation with the banks and banks didn't know what to do with brokers. And now you've got, it makes up 80%, 70% of bank value books of what goes through the third party channel. Then the question here is that whilst they work on the third party channel, there is still a cohort of customers, 30% of customers that are still wanting direct relationship with the banks. The thing here is that we talk about the fact that banks are now closing branches, they're slimming down their workforce. They're creating online services like other banking products and services. Therefore the question here is that where are they finding their customers if they don't have the foot traffic, nor do they have the footwork to go out there and-

Speaker 1: Yeah. It's a good question, you've just asked yourself.

Anny Le Wilson: Yes. I think all roads actually lead to Joust, be honest and hence the reason [inaudible 00:12:04].

Speaker 1: Very good. Very good. Anny, what are the latest stats on the Big Four's market share of the mortgage industry in Australia? I think back in the day it was 90%. I think that's come off a little bit. It's probably around about, is it 85, 80%, maybe 70%? Because obviously you've seen the rise of non-bank lenders, neo-banks, mutuals, credit unions, that sort of thing. Paint us a picture of where things are at.

Anny Le Wilson: I actually think that the big banks, the Big Fours have been quite smart around their competition in the marketplace. I think that those percentages are, they haven't shifted as much, but the difference is that they've gone into retention mode. What that means is retention mode is not about protecting only your current book, but acquiring other things that actually protect your strength in the marketplace. If you think about the fact that if I was to maintain my strength, if you look about the Big Fours, for example, they play very strongly in the broker space. And as you know, brokers make up 70% of the market share of consumers going for home loans. Therefore they're actually the growth opportunity has always been in the third party side. Then on the other side also, you think about how are they sustaining the rest of their business?

Anny Le Wilson: You think about the Big Fours. They're rolling out and they're buying out other online lenders. You look at NAB with UBank, you look at UBank with 86400, you look at CBA with their online new home loan offering. Therefore banks are getting, they're catching up and they're realizing that not only do they have to play in the digital space of being a digital lender and having multiple brands that fall under the parent company, but also they're playing third party. And that to me is a great retention strategy, but it's also a growth strategy as well. And I think the thing here is with the housing boom in the last couple of years, you can see that the strength hasn't faulted or moved and weakened with the majors. It's actually been an opportunity for them to actually look at the smaller guys, either gulp them up into their business or partner up with them or find other distribution channels such as broker.

Speaker 1: If you look at the Australian home loan market over let's just say this year, I said in my intro that clearance, it's got the wobbles, let's face it. Prices are coming off. They're talking as much as 15%, 20%. Clearance rates are way down. Interest rates are going up. They're talking potentially maybe another 1% maybe next month, who knows? Conditions are a little bit uneasy. From Joust's perspective, what are you seeing with respect to people looking to shake up their home loans either to refinance, find alternative lending, better interest rates? What market intel can you give us, Anny?

Anny Le Wilson: What we're seeing on our platform is a lot of refi inquiries. The thing here is that people are beginning to realize that they're coming off of their honeymoon rates and these honeymoon rates were very, very good honeymoon rates. I mean, I remember seeing a rate for 1.39, for example, and for me being around in finance for such a long time, it actually shocked me how low interest rates went. But then at the same time, the consumer, the smart ones are actually shopping now because they have a future need. What that future need means is it's short term. They're coming off of their home loan rates in the next six to 12 months. They want to see what the market is offering. And at the moment, a lot of them are getting quite a shock because they're fixed in at such low rates.

Speaker 1: Yeah, they don't realize it's moved so far.

Anny Le Wilson: They've moved so far. The thing here is that we are looking at now talking I guess fixing or variable. And because people have been conditioned to fixing because it's been a cheap rate and it's something that they can plan every month, set repayments every month and things like that, the nervousness is the fact that people are still looking for fixed rates, but they can't understand or fathom why these rates are so high. And we've had to explain to our customers, our consumers, that these fixed rates are factored in with one, your risk profile, but at the same time, the cost of funds going forward in the years that you fix in. Therefore the cost of funds have gone up. We understand the interest rates have gone up and it will continue to go up.

Anny Le Wilson: Then you're looking at variable rates now where you go that's so much cheaper than fixed rates, but then there's a nervousness in going into variable rates because it's unpredictable, I suppose, for consumers to know whether that rate is going to be good for six months or even one month after they settle the loan or whether variable rates are going to move again. We have this conversation where I guess a lot of lenders that we partner up with and also brokers is that they're having conversations of educating the consumer around what fixed and variable rates look like. And it's scary to a lot of consumers. A lot of people have overextended themselves, borrowing to buy and fear of missing out on that home and getting into the market. [inaudible 00:17:58]-

Speaker 1: Yes, yes. Paying overs.

Anny Le Wilson: Yeah, but now that we are seeing the market turn on property, it's going down, particularly in Sydney and Melbourne, and people who who've bought into the peak of the market, they now worry because of the fact that even if rates shifted by half a percent, whatever it is, it makes a major impact. But then on the upper side of town, your medium to higher echelons of class, you think about it, they actually have saved over one and a half years worth of savings because interest rates have been so low. They're prepared for interest rates going up. But then don't forget, I think the word veteran comes back again. I think about home loan rates being in the teens, in the-

Speaker 1: 17, 18%. Yes. I remember that.

Anny Le Wilson: Then you think about when interest rates, the GFC, people were selling off properties and interest rates were high and all that stuff. It's a cycle, and I think one of the things that we as human beings, we have a very short memory and we go through the hard times, but then when the good times come up, we forget of what happened in the past. There's a lot of things we can learn from the past.

Speaker 1: Yep. What are some of the questions that homeowners need to be asking themselves with respect to interest rates in their current lender, if they haven't refinanced for a period of time? Are there any tactics or bearing in mind, this is not official financial advice, but are there any things that people with mortgages should be doing or thinking about? And obviously questions to be asked of their current lender.

Anny Le Wilson: Absolutely. The thing here is that with lenders, if you think about the customer piece, you would work on the current customers strongly to retain them than actually let them go. Because we know that as a business, it takes 10 customers to come through your door before you can replace the one that you've just lost, right? The other thing is that is a very good question. What is it that I need to have that conversation with my lender? The first thing is that you talk about the strength of you as a borrower to that lender and what that means to them. Then on the other side also is the fact that you think about there's unknowns within the home loan structuring side of products, and a lot of the times lenders actually have discount variable rates, for example, and they have packages where you pay a fee per year and you're guaranteed an X amount of discount off of your variable rate or your fixed rate.

Anny Le Wilson: That's a good lead in conversation because a lot of consumers who are shopping online for their home loan, they only see the comparison rate. They only see the advertised rate, but once you actually have a conversation with a real human being, and that's what I say, the fact that even though we're additional platform that provides intel on home loans and matches and pairs you up with lenders is the fact that there is value in having a conversation and sitting down with your lender and talking through where your goals and objectives are for the next few years. It could be the fact that when you restructure your home loan, for example, you could restructure in tying in all those little yucky debts that you've plopped up and therefore you're saving interest rates on your credit card account, for example, and paying home loan rates for that, if you can actually put that all, consolidate that in.

Anny Le Wilson: There's a few mindsets in the way that you should focus on having these conversation. First, talk to them about what's the value of me being a loyal customer to you? And what is it that other added service values you can provide me to help me deal with the mortgage pain and stress that I will go through? And listen to what they have to say, because I think that we've been so transactional in the past few years is that we only want something, we only want to talk to lenders that can just give us what our immediate needs are. Now it's actually time to actually plan for what your future path of your financial planning is going to be like. And I think financial planners are going to be very busy as well in the coming months and years.

Speaker 1: But also ask the question. If you're just sitting there, just keep paying and paying and paying the same amount, rates are going up, and if you are not being a little bit antagonistic or agitating, you're not going to get anything. Is that your advice? Probe and ask some questions for, as you say, for your customer loyalty.

Anny Le Wilson: Absolutely. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. If you don't try, you don't know what's better on the other side. Then on the other side also is that it's an education piece for both lenders and consumers. If they're not having these conversations, they can't create better scenarios to best suit the needs of the consumers coming in, or they can't actually, they don't have the ability to think about what the future customer wants and what they want now, and plan out the growth of their business there as well.

Speaker 1: On Joust, on a platform, what's the panel of lenders like? I imagine it's pretty substantial, but who are some of the lenders that you're dealing with that's on the panel.

Anny Le Wilson: We have so many lenders on our platform and the great thing about this platform, it brings all lenders on an equal playing field. The thing here is that we don't take sponsorship money or whatever it may be and push home loan rates and lenders on our platform. We actually give them an array of customers that actually need what they provide in the marketplace. The thing here is when I talk about array of them, it's the fact that we've actually recruited these lenders on our platform to cater for all types of consumers. What that means is that the consumer that comes on board with a high lending criteria, but low income or their credit band's not so great, we've got partners on the platform that can satisfy those types of customers. Hence the reason why I think that when we think about our platform, we actually plan the platform around the consumer journey first.

Anny Le Wilson: I think that's really important because we are not flogging products here. We really care about the consumer journey, and at the same time that consumer has actually put in a lot of data points for us to actually help them partner up with a lender on our platform. You've got to understand the investment people put in to actually come onto our platform. And going back to your question is that how many lenders are on our platform? I don't really care about how many lenders, I want to care about how many lenders that can satisfy all the different types of consumers that are on our platform, as well.

Anny Le Wilson: And on the business side of things, we do recruit, we try to recruit lenders that have different offerings on our platform. What that means is that it gives lenders who don't have a high profile or a big brand loyalty in the marketplace to actually have an opportunity to talk to consumers on our platform that they think that they can provide value to.

Speaker 1: And am I right in saying Anny, that in some of the comparison sites, for example, you might see a particular rate, click on that and you go down a rabbit hole and then all of a sudden you don't qualify because of your risk profile? But on Joust, because you're inputting your personal financial data, the rate that you eventually end up with is much more suitable to your individual needs.

Anny Le Wilson: It is a very visual image of what the market is offering your profile. And it talks to what is pretty much lenders are going, "What is important that I need to put onto this Joust platform to offer consumers that have this lending need?" I think when you go down the rabbit hole of clicking on an attractive rate, I mean, guess back of my mind, I think from a marketing perspective, is that clickbait?

Speaker 1: The punter is thinking, "What's the catch here? This is is too-

Anny Le Wilson: Yeah, "What's the catch?"

Speaker 1: ... good to be true." Yeah.

Anny Le Wilson: Absolutely. And going back to my mother again, if it's too good to be true, it's probably that.

Speaker 1: Yeah. I'm keen to know more about how Joust has grown in the market. It's reasonably new. When I say that, it's been around, it hasn't been around for a hundred years, it's been around for four or five years or so. How has Joust grown and where's it heading? Where do you see the future for Joust?

Anny Le Wilson: I think when I think about the fact that Joust has been around for a few years prior to when I came board, I think about the fact that Joust spent a lot of that time investing on what the consumer journey was and what the consumer need was versus what the partners we need to have on our platform to do. I guess when I came on board, we actually launched into the broker market, for example, with a very heavy concentration on that. Because don't forget, brokers make up about 70% market share in that space that we play in. Therefore it was very, I guess, calculated that we need to be in that space. But then we also thought about the fact that given the experience that they had in the past, what did that mean to potential partners we were talking to? And how we break down those walls of, I guess, the leads generation being a dirty word?

Anny Le Wilson: We've taken on a very, and a big task, but I think we can do this is that we've taken on tasks ourselves to actually take on that corporate responsibility to educate brokers and lenders on the digital customer and what to expect out of that. When I think about prior to my time with Joust is that we worked on such a great proposition and a platform to actually offer the consumer market. But at the same time, our true sense where we actually came out of, I guess, where I guess the office of hiding behind tech people building and eating two minute noodles, was the fact that we came out and we said, "You know what? We have an added value service here for partners in the market, and we've got an opportunity here to do it really well."

Anny Le Wilson: And I think since we launched back in July last year, what that meant was that we took on feedback and we built and grow. One of the things that we say in our team is that we think we always need to learn, build, and then grow. Therefore our mantra is about building, learning, and then growing rather than growing and building and learning at the same time. If you do it in that order, you're taking on a lot of the feedback of what your partners are saying and what the consumers are saying and making that a match where what that means is that the two sided marketplace that we play in, everyone's happy with our service. I think when it comes to Joust as a whole, we spent the last few years building out a wonderful platform. We took it to market with great positive response in the last 18 months. Where does Joust go from here? Right now we're concentrated on the fact that home loan market is really hot at the moment. There's an urgent need for us to help.

Speaker 1: Yes, I think you're busier than ever.

Anny Le Wilson: We are extremely busy people. I actually don't know how many hours of the day we actually get to have on our own. But the thing here is that we actually have a team worth of passionate people who understand the service offering that we have in the market, both for the consumer side and for the B2B market. And where do we go from here? I come from a very diverse banking background, and I think I believe that there are many other verticals that we can take on board and some are in the planning at the moment. I won't tell you about our secret weapon.

Speaker 1: Okay. That can be another podcast.

Anny Le Wilson: That could be another podcast, but I'd have to say that once you see the home loan market shift, the residential market shift, you can then look at other verticals within the market that the pain points of the consumers are where they're going next. We follow the consumer in the SME market very closely, and what that means is that, and the wonderful thing about our business is that our tech team has very short cycles of building out functions and features and things like that. And I think that coming from a corporate background, when I've asked for a button to be changed, it's taken 12 months or even two years. Whereas I-

Speaker 1: You can go in and code it yourself and go, "It's done."

Anny Le Wilson: I know. When I was thinking about updating my LinkedIn profile, I was thinking, "What do I put in my LinkedIn profile to show that I absolutely love the place that I play in?" And in reality, you look in LinkedIn profiles, people go where I've been, what I've achieved. And for me, my profile for Joust is I work with a very passionate and smart group of individuals and human beings on earth right now. And our passion is in the financial, in service industry and we think that we can make a big difference. And it's not only about making a big difference through innovation. It's also through education as well and partnering and having humans behind a digital platform.

Speaker 1: I'm keen to know Anny, when for the customer, do they get matched with a broker or a lender close to their geography, or is that not as important? For example, if I'm in Sydney, am I necessarily going to be matched with a Joust broker who is in Sydney or does it matter? They could be in Geelong or Queensland or Perth. How does it work that way?

Anny Le Wilson: We know that a large amount of Australians shop online, right?

Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

Anny Le Wilson: Therefore they don't care where they get their products and services.

Speaker 1: Yes, exactly.

Anny Le Wilson: The thing here is that I suppose that creates such a wonderful open-mindedness about where they want to take their financial needs to. Therefore they're actually not ... Spit it out, Anny. They're not really particular where their home loan lands, if it means that they need to talk to a broker or a lender that is in Queensland and I'm in New South Wales. It's about what services you can provide me and what immediate need intake to alleviate my stress on the most important decision I have in life, which is money. Then the other side on the B2B side, a lot of our partners in the broker space, they will tell you that they utilize us because the fact that they don't need to open offices in every state now to talk to [inaudible 00:33:31].

Speaker 1: Yes, that's right.

Anny Le Wilson: They're utilizing us to actually expand their business and not necessarily having physical offices. And a lot of them are saying, "It saved me so much money," but at the same time, I get to diversify my skillset in talking to a customer in Queensland versus a customer in New South Wales. I'm learning more about what the industry and the property market are doing.

Speaker 1: Open borders. Yeah.

Anny Le Wilson: And why should you be restricted to the location that you sit in? We've got partners on our platform that they're in Tasmania, they're in South Australia, where a lot of the growth that they have is based on the fact that they have a national presence through Joust, and it's a wonderful thing.

Speaker 1: And technology's improved that, hasn't it? With Zoom and virtual meetings and secure documents online. You don't need those 7:30 PM dinner table pop arounds with the broker knocking on your door when you want to get the kids to bed.

Anny Le Wilson: Absolutely. The thing here is I think COVID, whilst it was doom and gloom and it wasn't great personally for a lot of people, but from a technology standpoint, from a pivoting standpoint, from a business growth perspective, it opened up the what can we do if we can't do the normal? And it's now turning the fact that the normal is now I'll meet someone on Zoom, talk about my hopes, dreams, and fears. And I get a resolution out of that and it becomes quicker. I don't have to get a document signed in front of me. I have technology that has been industry qualified to do that, and I think that it's a wonderful thing because don't forget being a veteran, I've seen the fact that I've had to feed through 50 page faxes to get an application through.

Speaker 1: Nightmare. Nightmare.

Anny Le Wilson: Now there's multiple CRM platforms that I can lodge through and I don't have to leave the comfort of my own home and take off my Ugg boots.

Speaker 1: Love it. Love it. I am pro Ugg boot. Annuity, it's been terrific catching up with you today. We're out of time. Anny Le Wilson is the Chief Revenue officer at Joust. Look out for the name, folks. It's a big company on the rise. Anny, thanks very much for coming onto the show and best of luck in the future. Thank you.

Anny Le Wilson: Thank you very much.

‍