Joust x Silver Bullet Podcast

Joust CEO Carl Hammerschmidt sat down with Silver Bullet to discuss the best business mantra in the home loan industry. To listen, you can find Carl's chat with the Silver Bullet podcast on Spotfiy.

Zanda:

Hi, I'm Zanda Wilson and welcome to another episode of the silver bullet podcast. This podcast is about lessons learned in running a business with a strong focus on startup founders and CEOs. It's all about finding out what gaps these disruptors have identified in the market, what they're doing differently to their competitors. And of course, to find out their silver bullet for business success. This week, I'm chatting to the CEO of home loan marketplace Joust, Carl Hammerschmidt, we chat about his experience in digital transformation, the challenges and opportunities presented by the pandemic, and why the customer should be central to everything you do in business. Carl, thanks so much for joining me today on the podcast. Thanks for having me. Zanda.

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Carl: 

Good to be here.

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Zanda:

Now you've been a chief executive at just for for over three years now. But before we get into that, you know, you've had a fair bit of experience in a range of industries from broadcast media, digital transformation stuff and, and like myself, you've spent a decent amount of time in the publishing world. Tell me a bit about how you ended up with Justin, sort of your your journey through your career so far?

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Carl:

Oh, look, it's it's not a simple story. And I guess, you know, as an online, home loan marketplace, or a financial services marketplace, I ironically, don't have a huge background in financial services. If you go farther, if you go far enough back, my my background is so you know, originally as a journalist and a content guy, sort of worked for, you know, sort of a range of the larger traditional media businesses over my career, SBS and ACP magazines, nine they are, and I guess, you know, on that journey, I guess, you know, in the particularly in the early 2000s, started to transition from journalism content over into the digital sides of the business at the time, you know, those businesses were setting up their their online networks, building out their digital offering, working out strategically how they can transform what they do, and, you know, how they could reach greater audiences through digital mediums and digital channels. And so really transitioned over into that. So at SBS, you know, the early part of my stint there was around starting to build out the first generation of their, their streaming services, and you know, that online radio and online video services, you know, to products, which, you know, I guess, you know, become today their, their online streaming radio platform and their SBS on demand platform. And yeah, I guess doing the the strategy, the capability building and the execution on, you know, on bringing those offerings to market. And so, and really helping the businesses transition from being, you know, singular channel to multi channel offerings. And I think, you know, the title for that, I guess, you know, really was sort of digital transformation that I guess, you know, in this day and age, it's a slightly anachronistic term, right. You know, everything's multi channel, and, but I think, you know, that those that stage sort of in the, you know, the early 2000s, and sort of read 2010, it was about helping the businesses transition and transform themselves. So, you know, always sort of enterprise scale stuff, always large corporate stuff. And, you know, that three and a half years ago, I guess, an opportunity came along, to run a startup. And I think, you know, my feeling was that I'd done a lot of a lot of the heavy lifting at some of these bigger enterprises and these bigger businesses, was really keen to I guess, you know, apply that to a standalone, smaller business and, and grow something significant, so that the just opportunity came along, and I jumped at it with both hands.

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Zanda:

Yeah, and you sort of jumped into my next question there already. But I was just going to ask you what, what's the experience been, like, so far, making that transition? From, you know, obviously, a lot of those larger scale companies, organisations where, you know, a lot of the back end is, is sort of taken care of, for, you know, this, you know, HR departments, PR departments and all that, and you're sort of focused on one thing, I guess, you know, there's probably been quite a bit of a learning curve, you having to look after a lot of those things and, and the on a smaller scale,

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Carl:

Look, absolutely. It's a, you know, it can be it's a bit of a baptism of fire, if I'm honest. And you, you know, you've you've, you know, you've really got to learn on the run. And I think, you know, that the, my role prior to joust was I was doing a lot of consultancy work for state government, the New South Wales Electoral Commission, around how to better deliver democracy effectively. I mean, it was, you know, big civic infrastructure stole stuff with really big back end systems, huge amounts of compliance. And you know, a lot of stakeholders I mean, every voting every person a voting age in New South Wales stakeholder, right? So, you know, the big enterprise stuff. And as you said, there's a lot of, there's a lot of associated stakeholders, and there's a lot of, you know, back end support and moving from that into, you know, a smaller startup business where, you know, you're your own HR division, you're your own finance department, you know, your own marketing department. And, you know, that's, that's a real, it's a real great, you know, it's a really great challenge. It's a really great transition. And, you know, I think, you know, I've always been a bit of a builder, and I've always really enjoyed, you know, building things built building businesses from scratch. And, you know, I think that's been a really great benefit of the last three years is that you know, your master of your own destiny, the calls that you make around all of those different aspects of the business, so the calls that you can, you know, without sounding too dramatic, live or die by?

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Zanda:

Yeah, for sure. And one of my favourite things to dive into on this podcast is sort of around business practices, and, and the way of running a business, you know, working within a culture, and especially for startups, coming about starting something like that, what were some of the more interesting things? Or? Or what were the things you took away from working in those larger corporate environments that you've, you know, you've tried to bring in, as you know, being in charge of this startup company now, or, in fact, try to steer clear from?

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Carl:

Well, look, I think the major one is around customer centricity, right? You no matter whether you are, you know, 10,000 person business or a 10 person business, you always need to listen to the customer, everything that you do needs to be driven by the customer's needs. And if you stay true to that philosophy, and that principle, you know, you'll, you'll get the best out of your business, and you'll get, you'll be able to grow your business most effectively. The you know, and you ultimately get the best out of the people you work with, as well, I think, you know, particularly in larger organisations, where you've got matrix structures, a lot of stakeholders, a lot of different agendas that can come into play, you know, it becomes very, you know, it's quite challenging to, I guess, remain true to that philosophy of customer centricity and, you know, doing what the market tells you and listening hard to the market, and regardless of, you know, any other agendas, remaining, fully focused on servicing the needs of the customer. But, you know, I think in, and that was one of the great attractions of coming over to a smaller startup is that, you know, as I said, you can, you know, you can be much more agile, you can be much more reactive, and you can be much more focused on servicing the needs of the customer. And I think if you stay true to that, as I said, whether you're in a large or small organisation, you'll, you'll eventually do much better or much better than you otherwise might.

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Zanda:

Yeah, and just on that culture piece, what sort of culture have you sort of tried to implement and champion at Jefferson? You know, were there any people you've sort of learned from in sort of higher up positions in those larger companies that you've sort of tried to embody the culture that they tried to instil when you work with

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Carl:

Them? Look, I've had the, I've had the benefit of a couple of good mentors over my career. And I think that, you know, the, the common theme, you know, for all of them, were about building good, cohesive cultures, and, and really ensuring that, you know, that businesses are all about people, and, you know, there's some parts of their people and, you know, about ensuring that, you know, the people that you hire into your business are the ones that are going to, you know, share it, you know, have a shared vision for it. So, I think in terms of building the, the culture and the business at Joust, it's, you know, it's about hiring people that you know, are capable, and then allowing them to do their jobs. You know, and you hire people for specific reasons, because of specific knowledge because of specific capabilities. And, you know, and part of the secret is, you know, what was firstly, the no decades policy, but then secondly, you know, allowing them to get on and, and do what they do well, you know, try not to micromanage, try not to, you know, I guess, you know, provide over, you know, direction and you know, allowing them to you know, to be you know, customer focused and customer centric in what they do and, you know, that that's that builds a strong culture and a strong business. And, you know, it's, it's not easy, right? It's much easier said than done, particularly at, you know, at larger organisations. And, you know, it's, I think it's, you know, it's it's key, right, that you really need to let you in really need to understand and you really need to remember that you hire people for a specific reason and they need to be proud of the space to you know, To execute on those skills and do what they do? Well,

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Zanda:

Yeah, and you mentioned before, obviously not having worked in the home loan space before now, how steep was the learning curve coming on board, you know, but But in, I guess, a topic area that you may not have been particularly familiar with?

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Carl:

Look, I think, a lot of the principles for just true of some of the other businesses I've worked in, right, it's about, I guess, changing or disrupting a particular industry, you know, changing the way a particular industry does business, and, you know, and catering to, you know, customer needs and sort of gaps in the market. Right. So, you know, I'm in the process of securing a home loan, as you know, has always been challenging, onerous, time consuming, confusing for consumers, and, you know, whether that's online or offline. And, and, you know, I think that the beauty of justice that, you know, as a business, it's really identified that challenge for consumers, and it really identified that, you know, for many, many, many years, the home loan industry has been quite lender centric, and quite industry centric, right. And that's led to huge amounts of customer inertia, led to huge amounts of, I guess, you know, unwillingness for consumers to, you know, to want to go out and find a better deal for themselves and potentially save themselves from develops and in saying joust and looking at jazz. And, you know, and I guess being attracted to his business model that that was, you know, I guess, part of the key right, you know, really solve problems for customers in a digital environment. And, you know, as a marketplace, you know, really solved that two sided equation, right, providing better offers and better deals for consumers, but at the same time, providing a platform for an industry to better target consumers and better distribute themselves online.

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Zanda:

Yeah, and you've touched on touched on this already. But my next question is, you know, for listeners that might not be familiar with just what is just what are the services you provide? And what what is this gap in the market that just is filling that potentially, you know, was going unfilled? Previously?

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Carl:

Right, I think, you know, I'm unaware of a classic two sided marketplace, like, you know, a lot of the big markets, you know, the real estate portals or the, you know, the motoring portals, we, you know, I guess we offer an open marketplace for consumers to come in, and then secure the right home loan for their particular needs, and their particular profile. You know, we look at ourselves, as I guess, a, you know, a central place where all consumers can make sure that they're getting the best deal for their, you know, or the most appropriate deal for their particular circumstances. So, you know, as I said, previously, if, you know, if you're a customer looking for a home loan, you know, you it can be really onerous, it can be really confusing, it can be very time consuming, you know, if you're, you're hunting around the comparison sites, and you know, you're having rates offered to you that you don't know that you, that you qualify for, or you're, you know, you're visiting individual bank sites, or, you know, individual lender sites, you're seeing a whole lot of products that you don't know, necessarily fit your circumstances and fit your profiles, and so inquire about them into, you know, I guess to, to, you know, to really, you know, I guess do that, that that price discovery piece is, is really time consuming and onerous. And with joust is a marketplace with, you know, a range of suppliers and brokers and direct lenders and non bank lenders on the platform. As a consumer, you can come in, you can enter your home loan needs, you know, with regards to what you know, what you're looking for, and then you'll get the offers provided to you from our lenders and our suppliers to the best in our best suited to your particular profile. So we use really, really good strong customer data and customer insights to make sure that client customers are getting the best offers for their, for the hotline. And it's, it's a, you know, it's it's a it's a competitive marketplace, right. So, you know, lenders are bidding for consumers in a reverse auction scenario, which means that it's transparent, and consumers are able to compare apples with apples, you know, rather than, you know, I guess, sourcing a range of offers from a range of different suppliers that you don't know, suited to your particular needs and your particular profile.

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Zanda:

Yeah, and just reflecting back on on the three and a bit years that you've been there, what would you say, you know, the biggest challenges you've had to overcome? Are they sort of, you know, the classic startup challenges, scaling, funding and that sort of thing? Or has it been something else?

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Carl:

I look at, you know, I think as a marketplace business, you know, that the the most challenging piece is driving that flywheel on both sides of the marketplace is to make sure that you're providing a great experience for consumers that you you know, that you you're really attracting, you know, the right consumers at the right cost. And then you know, using that consumer engagement to drive further law Working on the supply side, and then, you know, I mean, the the old network effect and starts to roll right? The more suppliers you have the better consumer experience, the better consumer experience, the more customers you're able to attract. Right. And, you know, I think without a doubt, you know, that is certainly the greatest challenge of the business. I mean, we've been really focused on, I guess, targeting the broker and third party market within the lending space, which is, you know, 70% of the market. And, you know, jazz provides a great opportunity for that, you know, basically that SME level and at an enterprise level for for the broking industry to really effectively and, you know, target particular types of customers and do it in a really cost effective manner. So, you know, scaling, you know, I guess getting that industry profile, getting that industry lock in, provide, and then using that to provide a great experience for customers is certainly, you know, one of the big challenges, right, and then and then, and then doing that scale.

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Zanda:

Yeah, of course, and you also joined just sort of just before about a year before the pandemic really hit Australia, what sorts of challenges did COVID-19 mean for the business? Its customers and partners?

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Carl:

I think, look, I think for both our our consumers and our lenders, and for the business itself, it presented a great opportunity. You know, the pandemic meant that, you know, I guess, everyone went online, started to go online for everything, right, you know, physical transactions, physical interactions, all had to go online. And, you know, I guess, the Home Loan price discovery journey, and, you know, the, the home loan, you know, that home loan industry, trying to seek out new customers and trying to seek, you know, drive new business, you know, or have to go online. And, you know, I guess, at that point, we saw, you know, a huge spike in customer intent, because obviously, there was, you know, there was a good deal of anxiety for people, you know, not knowing how the economy was going to perform, you know, not having, you know, I guess, having a lot of anxiety about what might happen to their employment circumstances. So that drove a lot of people to really think about some of the big financial decisions in their life. And, you know, that really was a great opportunity for jazz to be able to provide them the opportunity to, you know, to seek out new products, seek out new home loans, and potentially save them selves money in a in a really uncertain environment. So, and similarly, for the, you know, our lender, partners, our suppliers, it was, it was a great opportunity to, I guess, move from their offline interactions, right, move from their offline referral sources, and really start thinking about how they can grow and scale their pitches, their businesses, you know, in an online environment. And so, you know, whilst and then I guess, as, you know, as a digital business, as a startup business, we're always quite used to working remotely, we're always quite used to working, you know, sort of around the clock, and we've got, we've got employees offshore, we've got employees are all around Australia. And so I guess we're, you know, we're quite used to working as a, you know, as a virtual business, or a hybrid style business. And so, once again, I think the pandemic and, you know, I guess that the onset of COVID allowed us to, you know, really put that into practice, you know, during all the lock downs, and so I think, you know, at the time, whilst, you know, as with all other businesses that provided a great deal of uncertainty, and, you know, potential anxiety about where the market was going. I think, you know, in retrospect, it was, it was a great, great set of opportunities for us as well,

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Zanda:

for sure. And, you know, I guess that that anxiety, that customer anxiety, the anxiety around home loans, rising interest rates, that hasn't really gone anywhere, I suppose what's happening at the moment, it's now presenting potentially its own challenges for the business. I guess, you know, for anyone that that took out a home loan, during the record low interest rates, and is now finding they're not in the best position, or what would you recommend doing?

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Carl:

Regardless of, you know, the environment, you know, I would always say, ensure that you're shopping around, ensure that you are talking to a range of different lenders and a range of different, you know, either direct lenders or brokers to make sure that you're getting the best deal. You know, I think, you know, we've moved from that record, low interest rate environment where a lot of people, you know, fixed at wonderful prices, right, but in the next 12 months to 18 months, you know, a lot of people are going to be rolling off that into a much much higher interest rate environment and much higher variable rates. And you know, I think there's a whole generation of borrowers out there have only ever seen their rates go One way which is down, right. So, you know, whilst we've moved on from, I guess the, you know, the the pandemic environment where we have a whole other set of dynamics now that, you know, a play in the market where people are, you know, anxious about where interest rates are going to end up anxious about what it means, you know, in combination with the rising cost of living, and, you know, anxious about where they're, you know, financially, how they're going to manage it all over the next couple of years. And, you know, I think, you know, the advice in that environment is that consumers should always be shopping around, or, you know, and ensuring that you're taking your current lender to task with regards to the prices that you're paying, because there could potentially always be a better deal out there for you. And in this environment, you know, you have a lot of lenders who are, you know, recognising that and, you know, offering quite competitive rates, it is a rising market, but at the same time, you know, the good lenders, the smart lenders out there, are recognising an opportunity to gain more customers.

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Zanda:

And just looking to the future for for just, what's, what's coming up next, what can we expect over the next few years? Will you know, will they continue to be innovations with the platform? And yeah, what what can you say about that?

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Carl:

Look, we, you know, we're, we're really looking forward to, I guess, firstly, continuing to grow that flywheel and drive that flywheel, you know, better customer experience, you know, more customer centric services. And, you know, and in growing our supply side relationships, right, I think that's number one for the business and continuing to scale that. And, you know, we hope to do that through, you know, I think, you know, product innovation on both sides, right, providing a more secure and more seamless, more frictionless experience for consumers, with regards to how they can connect with, with lenders, and I have, how they, you know, their data can be used in a really effective, secure way to make sure that they're getting the best rates, getting the best offers, and then also working with our lender partners, and our broker partners on being able to provide product, you know, productivity tools, engagement tools, and, you know, I guess, support for their businesses on how they can most effectively, you know, how they can most effectively, you know, get these customers into application and into settlements. So, you know, we're looking at, you know, really innovating and really providing a strong set of services and features on both sides of the market for consumers and lenders.

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Zanda:

Yeah, definitely. And really looking forward to seeing what's, what's gonna come. And just to the question that I always finish this podcast with, which is, what is your silver bullet for business success? Now, you know, it can be really anything, I've had people come on here and say, it's getting up and going, you know, going swimming in the morning, it could be, you know, a cultural thing, it could be a mindset positivity is something that a lot of people have mentioned. But if you had to put it down to one thing, or even a couple of things that, you know, you think has really stuck with you and got you to where you are, what would you put that?

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Carl:

Look, I mean, the silver bullet is there's no silver bullet.

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Zanda:

But they you're the first person to say that, actually.

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Carl:

But I guess there's two key things right. The first one is, you know, coming back to that theme is customer centricity, right, always make sure that you are, the decisions you make are based around delivering what's best for the customer, listening to the market, listening to the consumer, listening to your suppliers, you know, we have two sets of customers, obviously, but you know, ensuring that you, you're constantly listening to them constantly making decisions based around their needs, and constantly evolving your business to provide what they require. I think that's, you know, if you stay true to that, and you focus your decision making around that, I think that's, you know, there's probably the first part of the equation and then the second part of the equation would be stamina, stamina, and tenacity, right? stuff doesn't happen overnight. It all takes time, you know, is no such thing as an overnight success. But, but when you do, you know, I guess, guide yourself by those customer centric festivals and you know, you apply yourself, you know, with a certain level of tenacity and belief in what you're doing, then, you know, success eventually comes.

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Zanda:

Yeah, that's great advice for anyone listening in our call Hamish Bitsy, I've just thank you so much for joining me on the podcast.

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Carl:

Thanks for having me. Zanda great to talk